Agreed!

While I also dislike ATCs that appear to have no thought put into them I am also guilty of the sticker on card and so could potentially be lumped into that basket. For example, in the 'All Things Piratey' ATC swap held recently I found the perfect stickers and so I used them. However, I did put some thought into my ATC and used an old game treasure map as the background, ink for highlighting, a digital image and some kindiglitz but technically my ATC could still be considered by some as just a sticker on card. Luckily my partner loved it :)

The camera flash caught the sword unfortunately but hopefully you get the idea.

I find it interesting that some of the ATC people feel it's so important to "review and rate" each other's work and offer unsolicited reviews of many others who never asked for their advice. They are very concerned about receiving an ATC that does not live up to their standards, but what about Dotees, bottle caps, postcards, charms, etc, that don't live up to their standards.

Honestly, I think everyone does the best they can and to me...that's enough. I didn't come here to "get my money's worth". I came here to trade and have fun. Don't get me wrong....I have received some pretty bad swaps and often receive swaps that do not come near what I send. So what! If you are here to receive rather than give, you're in the wrong place. Just be thankful that someone cared enough to send anything at all.

I agree that the worst ATC is the one you never receive.

I wouldn't consider magicjessnrach's ATC to be in the same category as the notorious sticker-on-cardstock variety. She obviously put thought and effort into it, plus, it is artistic. No matter how much time I spent on my ATC I would not be disappointed receiving her's.

I also would never send out something I wasn't proud of. It's not the skill level or the amount of time a person spent that bothers me. I think it shows that they don't care.

Sure there are other ATC sites I can use. But why should swap-bot become the 'crappy' card place just to avoid conflict. I like swap-bot. I like the community feel. Maybe if swap-bot didn't foster friendship and the feeling of belonging as much as it does it wouldn't matter that someone just slapped a sticker on a piece of cardstock and sent it off.

I don't agree that the worst ATC is the one you never received.

I'm not here for what I get. I'm not trading to get my money's worth. I love opening my mailbox and finding something besides junk mail and bills.

I also don't think we should 'be thankful to get anything at all' we're not kids at Christmas. I think we should fully expect to receive what the swap requires. It's part of the deal.

VJP, maybe people expect more from an ATC than a dotee or a bottle cap or whatever because it's an artist trading card. Not a "scrapbooking trading card" or a "crafting trading card" or even a "slap on a sticker trading card." I know there's a controversy as to what IS art or who can call themselves an artist, but I think the very name "artist trading card" connotes a piece done with skill and care.

I'm with VJP on this, except that I think people do criticise dotees etc. too. You just read about it less because there are more ATC swaps, and perhaps because more people just assume they can make ATCs.

One thing that bothers me is how easily it slips from criticism of the swap ("badly made ATC", "sticker on card") to criticism of the person ("obviously didn't bother", "just after what they can get"). My father used to do beautiful artwork (pen and ink, pencil sketches, watercolour), but in his last few years, his standard dropped noticeably. He didn't see that, though, and none of us pointed it out to him. If he'd been making ATCs to swap on this site, I'm sure some 'helpful' partner would have pointed it out to him though ... or worse still left him to stumble across a complaint in a public forum thread.

hwt, I agree with you too ... it's the community feel which makes it more hurtful when we are sent 'rubbish', but perhaps it is also why we should tolerate receiving work of varying standards. There are groups and swaps here that impose conditions on the work sent, so it is possible to swap ATCs here with more confidence in what you are likely to receive in return, but if we join public swaps without those restrictions, we should accept that we may receive cards of any standard.

I looked up the definition of Artist Trading Card (see below) and found no requirements beyond the size. Art, like beauty, is very subjective.

Artist Trading Cards are individual art miniatures which pass hand to hand. Some sources have credited M. Vänçi Stirnemann, who began trading sessions in Zurich, Switzerland, in 1997, as popularizing ATCs in the modern era, although modern ATC's can be traced back to portrait miniatures and to a kind of business card popular with Impressionistic era artists.[1]

Artists have produced miniatures for trade or self-promotion in many eras and places, and the current trend is thus part of this larger context. Historically there were few standard rules or guidelines to art trading cards, and many variances in sizes can be seen in older cards. The standardization in size of baseball cards is credited with creating the standardization in size for art cards. Today the only rule for these cards is their 2.5 by 3.5 inch size (64 x 89 mm), same as baseball cards and collectible card games. There are, however, certain conventions usually observed by those who make and trade these cards, such as the expectation that they be traded, not sold, and that they be created as unique works or small limited editions of prints. Artists generally sign and date the back, and may also include a title and contact information. For many, the face-to-face trading session is considered an integral part of the concept, although others find each other via the internet and trade by mail.

Artist Trading Cards are typically made on a base of card stock. However, ATCs have been created on metal, stiffened fabric, plastic, clay, glass, balsa wood, leather, embroidery canvas, acetate, heavy watercolor paper, and many other materials. The art on the cards can be done in any media: textile arts, pencil, watercolor, acrylic, oil, collage, scratch board, mixed media, assemblage, digital art, calligraphy, beadwork, rubber stamps, carved soft block stamps, pen and ink, colored pencil, airbrush, pastels, and many others - anything artists use.

Vjp said "Artist Trading Cards are typically made on a base of card stock." This is the only real complaint I have on ATCs I have recieved ATC on just flimsy paper with no backing or stiffness which makes them so easily bent from postal services and handling from anyone. I like have different skill levels and different techs in my collection. MHO is it makes my collection more realistic and down to earth.

Its also easy to forget that there are people of all general abilities on here as well. Your "Sticker on a card" ATC may be the best work your partner, a person with limited mobility, possibly homebound or in a wheelchair, with limited means, can do. There is no telling who is on the other end of the mail.

That said, a group could be started for people who want to be critiqued, and post those critiques (with a rating system) on their profiles. While this may weed out "sticker on a card" folks, it would discriminate as well (some hosts will ask that you have a certain rating from the group to join swaps). It is one idea though.

Ya know, I've seen A LOT of really cute bottle caps I like; even one's that look like little pies. I REALLY want one, but I don't know how to make bottle caps...

WAIT, I know. My scrapbook store sells blanks for a few cents. I'll buy a couple, press a sticker in it and join a BUNCH of bottle cap swaps!

WOOT! I KNOW those bottle cap swappers are too nice to complain.

....

HWT~ You are absolutely right! We are!! I have received some bottle caps that were horrendous!! But I could tell the person tried and I appreciate EVERYONE'S effort. We can't all be expert artists and I don't believe that's what this site is about. It's about AVERAGE people coming together to swap with each other. Just for the record, I have also received some wonderful bottle caps, so it evens out in the end.

Perhaps instead of making people feel bad for their abilities, all of the "expert ATC" people should form a group so they can trade with other experts. Then you won't have to put up with those of us who don't meet your rigid standards.

I prefer to trade with everyone and enjoy the variety of items from around the world, at all different skill levels.

They are groups for the better ATC swapper. Some swaps will even say if you put stickers on a card "make it flow" either way I'm with VJP on this one. It is your right to want what you like and if you are picky about what you get for an ATC then you should "by all means" join those groups and not join the public swaps.

edited to add. I have a flickr album for the ATCs I pick and choice and a seperate album for swapbot. When I take my ATCs to show I do show both and I never throw out an ATC. I just wierd like that. :)

Halfwaythere- I totally get what you are saying, there will always be people who abuse a system, no matter what that system is. I guess it's just human nature. But I have to believe that the vast majority of people are doing the best they can. Some people lack the skill and others just plain lack an artistic eye altogether.

The thing is, if you knew going into it that you were going to get a less than stellar card in return, would you feel ok about sending out a card that was anything less than your best effort?

I don't sit here and claim that my cards are showstoppers every single time, but I will promise you that I give each card my full attention from the planning stages to the execution. Sometimes my efforts fall far short of my original vision, but every card that makes the cut (not all of them always do, some are just sad little guys that don't get the breepre stamp of approval) is one that I feel good about because I know that it's a representation of myself as an artist and where I am with my craft (omg, how pretentious does THAT sound?).

For me, it's not really a question of whether a sticker on cardstock (which I'm going to shorten to SOC because I hate typing it out every time) is a "real" ATC or if it constitutes art. I'm not an art critic so for all I know it totally is. I can't control the quality of the work I recieve in the general population swaps, however, I'll continue to do the best quality work I'm capable of no matter what. The same can be said for any swap I'm in from Dotees (don't even ask me how my first one has turned out, jeez) to postcards.

Here's something else I've been thinking of (how sad is it that I lay in bed at night and think about Swapbot forums?)...

Is there a difference in your mind between the SOC and a magazine image cut and glued down or a rubber stamp plopped in the middle of the card? Is SOC just shorthand for any uninspired use of someone else's image?

How much effort do you expect before you call it original art? Would two rubber stamps make it better? Like adding wings to the stamp of a woman? What about stickers cut and layered or otherwise altered?

Do other sites spend this much time discussing the distinctions between ATCs or is it unique to this site? I've known about ATCs for years, but this is the first time I've traded them. Some I've receved are a LOT better than others, but I think they are all pretty cool looking when you have them all gathered together into a collection.

Actually, I think I'm going to open my own little Island of Misfit ATCs. Send your neglected and abused ATCs to me and I'll put them out to pasture with my own little herd. :)

I think SOC just gradually became a shorthand for an ATC that appears to show no effort or thought. I don't think a SOC in this context is about the originality of the image or the artistic merit, just about the perceived lack of effort. Its close cousins are the cards which are badly cut to the wrong size, those with pieces falling off and so on.

[having said which, I've received ATCs which were badly cut or had pieces falling off, and probably ones with single stickers, but which all clearly took a lot of thought and/or effort.]

How relevant are time and effort, though? What if a skilled artist can paint and draw a beautiful image with a few strokes that only take a couple of minutes? I'm thinking of some Chinese brush painting type ATCs which I've seen, and which I would love to own. So perhaps it isn't actually time or effort but rather whether they are showing respect for their partner by sending something they feel is good quality?

You've nailed it in one, SJ. Respect is the word I've been skirting around, but couldn't quite pin down. Maybe that's what the entire issues really boils down to. Do people perceive the cards they are sent as reflecting a certain amount of respect?

I have received beautiful "artist quality" cards on Swap-bot. But I don't expect them with every swap I join. I have received cards that I was totally happy with where a new trader altered a magazine image (yes, it was wings...) and totally disappointed where an established swapper sent me a card decorated with three rubberstamped hearts. It's all about a pleasing lay-out -- which not everyone can accomplish -- and effort.

When I join a swap I do take time to check out the links to photos from many participants as I can. I have joined swaps and then dropped out before partners are assigned because I realize that chances are good I'm not going to get back a good return.

The ONLY way to be sure I am always happy is to trade for something I have seen. Even then I can personally attest that sometimes when the cards I've seen on my computer monitor and looked so pretty turn out to be no better "crafted" than many of the cards I've received in blind trades. The design and lay-out may be more pleasing but there's just as much chance that there's a bit of glue on the top or loose layers of paper.

I've have added hundreds of ATCs to my collection in blind swaps here during the past 3 years. You're only going to be 100% satisfied if you can hold a card in your hand and look at it before trading. Truly I'm more interested in what I can create and pass on than what I get back in the mail. But you can increase the chances of being happy by participating in specific groups and checking out who is also joining in the swaps.

Gee, VJP, just two more totally selfless instances and we can nominate you for sainthood.

I DON'T think I'm an "ATC Expert" I don't even claim to be very good at ATC's. I like to try out new methods/mediums with them, after all a small piece of card stock is much cheaper to ruin than a Moleskine notebook [my favorite art is altering notebooks/journals] they are a mean's to an end. Which doesn't mean that I always use new methods, or send cards that turned out badly.

I don't expect the cards I receive back to meet any certain artistic standards. Maybe I'm explaining it wrong...

If my grandson handed me a piece of paper with scribbles on it, I would GUSH. If my 16 year old son did the same thing, I would laugh at him... so maybe that does constitute effort, but I have seen my son create amazing drawings in just a few minutes. I guess effort doesn't equal time.

The longest part of a college for me is cutting items out. Once I have everything together I can put it together quickly. I know what I like.

Free hand drawing takes me much longer, but I think my colleges are much more artistic than my drawings.

Even though I have more experience with colleges, from making ATC's I have learned a lot more about sandpaper and which inks I like better and not to mix crumbled up dried rose petals with glass finish.

I am sure there are straight ATC artists out there.

WAIT - I think I got it...

I believe art is a form of self expression. What is someone expressing with a sticker on a piece of card stock? That they don't give a crap. That's my problem. They could have kissed it with heavy lipstick on, or made slashes with a black sharpie across it... either would be self expression and I would appreciate their effort.

Gee, VJP, just two more totally selfless instances and we can nominate you for sainthood.

Why on earth do you need to be so snide? Is it so difficult for you to believe that there are people on this earth who are nice and have different levels of tolerance than you do?

I believe art is a form of self expression. What is someone expressing with a sticker on a piece of card stock? That they don't give a crap. That's my problem. They could have kissed it with heavy lipstick on, or made slashes with a black sharpie across it... either would be self expression and I would appreciate their effort.

You are assuming that they have the creative ability to conceive of lipstick on the card, versus a sticker. Maybe they have Autism, CP, Fibromyalgia, arthritis, cancer or any of the many, many maladies that affect so many people here on swap-bot. Maybe this is the best they can do. Again, tolerance is needed in understanding everyone's varying abilities because we don't know what is going on in their life.

But, you are right about one thing..... it is YOUR problem. Perhaps some tolerance counseling will help with that.

lol i have had my fair share of disagreements with vjp.. but girl, on this one im with you 100% and find myself totally nodding in agreement at everything youve said :)

YUP YUP YUP is all i can say to ALL the points you have validly raised..

dont need to add anything else really, cos vjp has said it all

When it comes to trading ATCs or anything else for that matter, you just want to feel that what you've sent is comparable in quality/effort/artistic presentation to what you receive (or at least close). That's just human nature, I guess.

Kawaii swappers complain that they sent $20 worth of goodies and only received non-kawaii items. Quilters complain that they sent a quilter quality FQ and received cheap Wal-mart in trade. Penpalers gripe that they handwrote their letter and received a typewritten one instead. The list goes on and on.

Everyone's expectations are different. I don't think that we'll ever arrive at a consensus on this issue but it's not unique to ATCs!

I agree its time not talent, if you spent time and thought it shows, regardless of talent. I am trying to do an ATC right now that is so not my taste and so contrary to how I work its a struggle but I hope the recipient will see the effort that went into it

I love getting ATC and to date, not one has disppointed me, I seriously love all of them but some more than others :-D

Everybody has brought up such good points I could probably argue them all. But, the thing that has irked me the most is you halfwaythere. I for one can name four other instances in which VJP has been completely selfless and I myself nominate her for sainthood. Could you get off your high horse and at least attempt to understand what she's saying? Is it really such a hard thing to do? Why waste time complaining about it? Isn't there a war going on? Aren't there more worries in life? It seems you could learn a thing or two about selflessness if you'd honestly laugh at anything your son did for you, regardless of what it was. In my opinion you've made a complete ass of yourself with your assumptions and snide remarks and no matter what form, you're right, everybody's true colors will shine.

Some of the points here have made me think twice about how I view undersirable ATC's. While I still don't want them, there are so many venues in which to trade, if I'm not 100% (or even 80%) sure I'm going to enjoy what I receive, I don't sign up. Pretty simple no?