Why on earth do you need to be so snide? Is it so difficult for you to believe that there are people on this earth who are nice and have different levels of tolerance than you do? ... But, you are right about one thing..... it is YOUR problem. Perhaps some tolerance counseling will help with that.

Do you even realize how intolerant your comments have been? Not tolerating other peoples views IS intolerence. Lie's are never nice, neither is pity. Why should I not express my opinion because someone else may not like it? Should we all walk around with bouncy heads and valium smiles? Would the world be more to you likeing then?

I have several health contitions. Sadly my son-in-law died from his health impediments just before his first major showing in Flagstaff last month; being mentally or physically challenged has nothing to do with it... especially not as a reason to look down on someone.

Chico Cole ...

Chico dressed as Elvis at my son's wedding 10/07

@Choke - you don't know me at all, making snap judgments about someone is pretty hideous. Most people who feel a deep sense of self righteousness are anything but.

....walks in tiptoeing, sets down a plate of cookies & pot of coffee as a peace offering and slinks back out....

I have started a group on flickr for swapping miniature art projects internationally. I am about to organise our first swap soon. For each swap I do in this group I am assigning a catagory either, beginners, intermediate and advanced. In the group I have some advanced artists who sell their work and beginners who are just interested in having a go and all kinds in between. It is just a small group and we are just beginning but I think they key is honest communication and being able to take constructive criticism. Also, being able to share photos of your work helps swap partners to expect what each others art standards are like and promotes healthy discussion.

Although this group is only in the early stages I am really hopeful it will become a good experience for all members. Also it is a public group and everyone is welcome.

Takes a cookie with thanks...

While it is lovely to be so accepting of everything and everyone it is not actually realistic. HWT was exactly right when she said "not tolerating other peoples views IS intolerence. Lie's are never nice, neither is pity."

While I do admire VJP's outlook and wish I could be more tolerant I do have to question her statement "you are assuming that they have the creative ability to conceive of lipstick on the card, versus a sticker. Maybe they have Autism, CP, Fibromyalgia, arthritis, cancer..." Why do any of these illnesses preclude someone from having an artistic sensibility? Some of the most artistic people I know have illnesses such as these. It does not stop them from being artistic although it may slow down their creative process.

As I said in another thread on this subject Art is subjective. What is great for some may be awful for others. Therefore (IMHO) we should look at each ATC as the best we can do and the best our partners can do. If we don't like what we receive we can throw it out or recycle it, move on and not complain.

HWT ~ I think you need to go back and reread the thread. WE were having a discussion with everyone freely commenting on the SITUATION until you decided to make personal attacks on me...as usual. I have NEVER said anyone on this thread should not post. I have simply done the EXACT same thing you have...voiced my opinion. I have 10 times the tolerance you do...but you have found my limit for tolerating your nastiness.

None of us here has said one word about "looking down" on anyone else, so I have no idea where you got that from nor do I have a clue what this means... Lie's are never nice, neither is pity.

I was simply using illnesses as an EXAMPLE of what COULD be occurring with people we are swapping with who don't send exquisite ATC's and other items. We just don't know what motivates people and their choice of creativity and physical and mental issues MAY be part of it, but may not. There are many, many reasons that peopel create the way they do. Who are we to question someone else's creativity?

Should we all walk around with bouncy heads and valium smiles?

I think that is a great first step!! Fake it, till you make it!! Before you know it, you really will be happy and tolerant!!

A sticker on a flimsy piece of paper might not be your idea of art, and it is dissappointing to recieve...I've gotten my share of them, but I always try to find some thing positive to say. It isn't helpful to anyone to be hurtful...art is subjective. I don't trade to see what I can get....it's all about being able to share my art with people all over the world. I don't know what will happen to my portfolio once I die, it could go into the nearest trash heap....but I like to think that some of the things I've created here will be kept and treasured.

Why do any of these illnesses preclude someone from having an artistic sensibility? Some of the most artistic people I know have illnesses such as these. It does not stop them from being artistic although it may slow down their creative process.

They definitely don't PRECLUDE people from being artistic, but they could provide a challenge in communicating it. Those were simply EXAMPLES of some of the challenges that people deal with every day...and yet they take the time to create something for someone else. I am not lumping people together or assuming that people who suffer from a malady are less creative...but I do know that many people on this site deal with the pain and anguish of physical illnesses and yet they sit at the craft table and create something for a stranger. I admire that and appreciate whatever I receive from others...whether they are healthy or not. I'm simply saying...we don't know and therefore it is very ungracious of us to question someone's ability.

I remain firm that the items I receive, whether to my liking or not, are created with the best of intentions and hard work. I don't believe anyone on here just slaps something together because they are lazy or don't care said with a bouncy head and valium smile

While I'm all for being tolerant, and realize that each of us is on different levels with regards to creating ATCs, I still say a sticker on a card is NOT an ATC or art. I think most people would agree. I've also said before that using stickers is not a bad thing -- I like stickers! But if I was opening up a swap with the proverbial sticker on a piece of cardstock, I'd be disappointed. Particularly if the swap description specifically indicated that a sticker on a card was not acceptable. And just because I might be disappointed, and the swap requirement isn't met and I PM the person about this doesn't mean that I'm being hurtful - there are nice ways to tell someone that the ATC isn't meeting swap requirements. I don't think this has anything to do with art being subjective -- it seems clear from swap requirements that objectively, sticker on a card isn't art. That being said, I haven't received the sticker on a card ATC -- the ones I've gotten have been great! And I am a beginner, and I know that other ATC makers are doing amazing stuff that I could probably never do, but I do put effort into each ATC I make, FWIW.

IF it is in fact part of the swap requirement that no stickers should be used, then that is a completely different issue. That is not complying with swap requirements and should be handled like any other infraction of the swap rules. HOWEVER, if it is not explicitly stated then it is allowed.

That's not what I mean. Do you know how sometimes swap requirements might state "send something you'd be happy to receive, no stickers slapped on a card"? That's not saying that stickers can't be used, it's saying "don't just put a sticker on a card and call it a day." And just because something is allowed doesn't mean it's right to do. I won't stick a sticker on a card and mail it, even if it's allowed. Why? Because it's not an ATC. It's a sticker...on a card.

VJP - * have 10 times the tolerance you do*

I seriously doubt that.

If you were tolerant you wouldn't be so harsh on people who have an opinion different than your own.

No one has ever said they expect exquisite ATC's. Why such drama and name calling to try to make your point. If you had a valid point, you wouldn't need it.

I think you need to go back and reread the thread

Actually, you do; You attacked me first.

VJP 19 hours ago HWT... Perhaps instead of making people feel bad for their abilities, all of the "expert ATC" people should form a group so they can trade with other experts. Then you won't have to put up with those of us who don't meet your rigid standards.

I find it interesting that you consider something more than a sticker on a piece of card stock "rigid standards".

Lies = not saying what is true. Would it help if I pulled the def. from wiki from you?

Pity = ...whether they are healthy or not. I'm simply saying...we don't know and therefore it is very ungracious of us to question someone's ability.

So if we DID know it would be okay? I find it offensive that you would even tie someone's mental or physical challenges to their creativity. I would never look down on someone because of either or assume that a less than stellar piece of work must stem from some disability.

If you google "art" and look at images, there isn't one piece of card stock with a sticker on it, at least not in the first 20 pages. I checked.

Fake it, till you make it!!

I think it's important to be 'real', whether you accept me or not is your problem. In your life, have you ever figured out that not everyone wants to be you?

HWT~ addressing your intolerances and inaccuracies is becoming quite tedious. So, one last post to CORRECT another inaccuracy .... I did not attack you first. I simply listed the ACCURATE guidelines for ATC's, which you did not like. You say this was my post attacking you...

VJP 19 hours ago HWT... Perhaps instead of making people feel bad for their abilities, all of the "expert ATC" people should form a group so they can trade with other experts. Then you won't have to put up with those of us who don't meet your rigid standards.

However, this was posted AFTER YOU posted this:

Ya know, I've seen A LOT of really cute bottle caps I like; even one's that look like little pies. I REALLY want one, but I don't know how to make bottle caps...

WAIT, I know. My scrapbook store sells blanks for a few cents. I'll buy a couple, press a sticker in it and join a BUNCH of bottle cap swaps!

WOOT! I KNOW those bottle cap swappers are too nice to complain.

Since I do bottle caps, and specifically stated that I would like to make the ones in the shape of pies....we all KNOW this was directed at me. Hence, you fired the first shot.

Lies = not saying what is true. Would it help if I pulled the def. from wiki from you?

Given the lies you have told, I don't need a definition beyond what YOU have demonstrated by saying I fired the first shot. I know what a lie is, I just have NOT told any...but you have.

Pity = ...whether they are healthy or not. I'm simply saying...we don't know and therefore it is very ungracious of us to question someone's ability.

Wow...you say pity as though it is derogatory. Here is the official definition for you direct from the Random House Dictionary:

pity
8 dictionary results for: pity

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This pit�?�·y /�??p�?�ªti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pit-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural pit�?�·ies, verb, pit�?�·ied, pit�?�·y�?�·ing.

�¢??noun 1. sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy: to feel pity for a starving child.

1. a cause or reason for pity, sorrow, or regret: What a pity you could not go! �¢??verb (used with object)

2. to feel pity or compassion for; be sorry for; commiserate with. �¢??verb (used without object)

3. to have compassion; feel pity.
   �¢??Idiom5. have or take pity. to show mercy or compassion.

[Origin: 1175�¢??1225; ME pite

By the way, I never used the term "pity". That was yours. I simply said I have tolerance and understanding for those you send items that are ... a sticker on a piece of paper. I honestly don't care.

SB ate the rest of my post, so I will take that to mean...I'm done arguing this.

Last words...

Someday, someone, somewhere may give my autistic granddaughter the impression that her work is not up to "standards". I will be there to defend her against anyone who may have expectations she cannot live up to. THAT is why...I have tolerance. Because I have seen the devastation those words can bring "it's not good enough"..."it's just a sticker on a piece of paper"....but for her it may have been all the creativity she had. But...she has me...to fight the fight. To educate those who are not tolerant.

I've read part of this thread (until the fight started), and I'm now skipping posts from certain people, so I don't get involved... if my post is redundant, please forgive me.

Let me babble for a moment about myself to explain my point. I know this is going to open me up to personal criticism, but it's the only way I can think to express my view.

I like trying new things, and ATCs seemed like a new craft/item that was small, quick, inexpensive, and form accepting of self-expression. I probably wouldn't have started making these, if I've seen all these threads criticizing the quality and makers sooner. I mostly join beginner ATC swaps or ones that are supper popular (obviously attracting the new and average ATC makers, not just pros.)

I don't consider myself an artist or a top quality ATC maker. That being said, I have taken art classes, both in high school and college. I can draw when inspired and relaxed. I do have a wealth of quality art supplies. I am creative... so while my ATCs are not top notch, some of this came be attributed to my inexperience in the art form. Not a lack of desire, lack of talent, lack of respect, or even lack of effort. I believe this is true for everyone. When you try a new technique, media, or even a new style (minimalism, etc) you are once again a novice. And you are not necessarily the best person to see your own beginner mistakes, since pride in your accomplishment can hide them from your own eyes.

I don't understand the SOC thing, but it may simply be that the person is a novice. And if you think about it, a novice is not going to have the array of high-quality tools and supplies of an expert. I have some of these supplies, that's why I felt it was inexpensive for me to dabble in ATCs. But I know stamping/scrapbooking style is my weakness. I'm slowing building up a variety of papers, stamps, inks, stickers, etc which make my designs look more polished and professional than earlier attempts. I guess what I'm trying to say is this... we can't see the reject ATCs that go unfinished or thrown away. That ATC that you think is pathetic might just be the best of 5 attempts.

Also, there are people that don't see the "art" in a screen print of a Campbell's soup can, but Andy Warhol is instantly recognizable by exactly that. I can't appreciate modern art sculpture, because I can't see beyond the components. I have a friend that can't see the subject matter of an impressionist painting due to a problem with her eyes. So the audience doesn't always see what the creator intended, simply because they are different people with different minds, bodies, experiences, and perspectives.

VJP - Since I do bottle caps, and specifically stated that I would like to make the ones in the shape of pies....we all KNOW this was directed at me. Hence, you fired the first shot.

Actually, I don't KNOW you do bottle caps or that you specifically stated anywhere that you wanted to make a pie shaped one. I actually thought you were into matchboxes.

So - you did all this because I picked bottle caps as a sarcastic example? Dude. I don't really pay much attention to you at all, except maybe to feel sorry for you when every one was calling you names [stuck-up, pretentious... I forget exactly - something about you always acting like you're better than everyone else]

Someday, someone, somewhere may give my autistic granddaughter the impression that her work is not up to "standards". I will be there to defend her against anyone who may have expectations she cannot live up to. THAT is why...I have tolerance

So, because you fear someone who may or may not exist in the future you badger people here? Just because you have a black friend, doesn't mean you are not prejudice and just because your granddaughter is autistic doesn't mean you are tolerant.

I really think this all goes deeper than that for you. People with disabilities are NOT sub-standard.

HWT~ Nice try, no cigar. I am definitely not into matchboxes, although I have made some in the past. But it just seems TOO coincidental that you would pick bottle caps AND the pie bottle caps that I have discussed many times, to use as a sarcastic example....RIGHT AFTER MY POST.

I did "all this" because I posted my opinion and YOU once again, made a personal attack. BTW- I am not a dude and no reason to feel sorry for me. I can hold my own, quite nicely, thank you very much. I've become accustomed to being a target for being outspoken. No worries.

So, because you fear someone who may or may not exist in the future you badger people here? Just because you have a black friend, doesn't mean you are not prejudice and just because your granddaughter is autistic doesn't mean you are tolerant.

Oh I see...you are allowed to post about your son-in-law's passing to prove your tolerance, but I may not share my personal story. That's rich.

You do not need to educate me on people with disabilities. I am intimately familiar with many disabled people, as I work with them regularly. NEVER did I state that they are sub-standard so I would appreciate it if you DO NOT twist my words or meanings. Please do not project your thoughts onto me....keep that ugliness to yourself.

HWT~ I realize it is very difficult to continue to defend your defenseless, selfish positon in the light of honesty. Your desire to continue to throw mud is quite ugly. Your need to twist my words and meanings is unconscionable. I came here BEFORE you, simply to state my perspective that I think we all need to be tolerant when we receive ATC's vs your perspective that some people purposely slap a sticker on a piece of paper.

Perhaps we can resolve this quite easily.....

I am happy to swap ATC's with anyone who is concerned about being judged too harshly by those who need to review and rate each other's ATC's and publicly post who makes ugly ATC's.

Are you two still at it? (LOL)

@na195097 I was thinking along similar lines to you last night. While it may be true, as hwt said, that googling Art will not bring up any SOC images, it is also true that many pieces that are now considered Art were not considered Art at the time they were produced (impressionism, cubism and so on). A lot of Art is still controversial (Andy Warhol, Jackson Pollock, Mark Rothko, Damien Hirst, Tracy Emin and many, many more) and yet some people pay large amounts of money for that work. "Art" is just a label, a category, so who decides what gets that label? The ATC police?

thanks SJ :) We seem to think alike quite often.

VJP's stance is exactly what I was getting at. While folks might not be expecting an SOC and it might not be what the recipient calls art, it may very well be what the maker calls art, or the best version of their vision that they are able to create. For whatever reason.

HWT, why do you have such a grudge again VJP? So you don't believe an SOC is art and wouldn't appreciate it. Whoop-d-doo. Art is subjective. Haven't we all agreed on that?

VJP - actually I posted my SIL's work to show that people with disabilities are capable of being creative.

I don't read all the forum topics. Sometimes I don't even read all the posts in a topic. I certainly don't follow what you do.

HWT~ I realize it is very difficult to continue to defend your defenseless, selfish positon in the light of honesty. Your desire to continue to throw mud is quite ugly. Your need to twist my words and meanings is unconscionable. I came here BEFORE you, simply to state my perspective that I think we all need to be tolerant when we receive ATC's vs your perspective that some people purposely slap a sticker on a piece of paper.

I see my position as neither defenseless or selfish; maybe because I'm not seeing much honesty.

LOL - you're using the point that you posted in this topic FIRST to prove what?

telizas - I don't hold a grudge against VJP. I'm sorry you see it this way. No matter I am done with this thread.